2004-02-17 - 12:33 a.m.
beaumont59: hey
ByronTatman: hi
beaumont59: here is a question for you
beaumont59: how do you feel about this quote: "there is no reality... only perception"
ByronTatman: I can see it many different ways
ByronTatman: in a quantum mechanical sense I'd say that's true
ByronTatman: but in a realistic sense I'd say that's bull
beaumont59: if you explained it in the quantum mechanical sense would i be extremely confused?
ByronTatman: hrm
ByronTatman: as you get smaller and smaller
ByronTatman: to like the size of an atom
ByronTatman: things stop behaving in a normal way
ByronTatman: you can't really tell where anything is
ByronTatman: the best you can do
beaumont59: hoq so they behave if not in a normal way?
beaumont59: how do
ByronTatman: they have probabilities
ByronTatman: of being in certain states
ByronTatman: you can know the probablility distribution but you can't know the actual position
ByronTatman: and the thing is
ByronTatman: there is a wave function that describes that probability distribution
ByronTatman: this is actually the way everything is
ByronTatman: even big things
ByronTatman: so there is this unsure probablity function
ByronTatman: and when you measure something
ByronTatman: it goes from this non-existant state where all these possibilities exist simultaniously
ByronTatman: to one where a certain state is chosen
ByronTatman: but until you measure it
ByronTatman: it doesn't have a fixed state
ByronTatman: only a probability
ByronTatman: so when you measure something the abiguity goes away and it becomes real
ByronTatman: it's really hard to explain
ByronTatman: so anyway
ByronTatman: if there is no one to measure something
ByronTatman: it just exists as a non-real wavefunction where multiple events are only probabilities
ByronTatman: it's hard to generalize strictly mathematical concepts into language
ByronTatman: that is where the concept of elegance comes into mathematics
ByronTatman: trying to explain this is like trying to tell a joke that was told to you in another language
ByronTatman: to someone who doesn't speak that language
beaumont59: it sounds like another language yes
ByronTatman: the thing that makes it funny is all of the symantics behind the words
ByronTatman: and you can't convey that to someone if they don't speak that language
ByronTatman: mathematics is a language...and unfortunatly it is the language in which this concept is written
ByronTatman: and it's very difficult to have it make any kind of impact if fundamental concepts aren't already in place in your mind
ByronTatman: it's like trying to explain why punk rock is cool to a being from another plannet
ByronTatman: they wouldn't have the intuitive understanding of our culture
ByronTatman: to understand how that plays a part in it
beaumont59: one of my teachers was telling us to read some old piece of writing and try to just translate it into modern language as we read so that it would be easier to understand. i think that we just do that automatically most of the time. so when you are telling me these things about mathematics, i kind of translate them into something different that i can understand but it may not have anything to do with it
ByronTatman: right
ByronTatman: you couldn't explain the subtlty
ByronTatman: at best the general concepts
ByronTatman: but it would be like a very lo resolution picture
ByronTatman: and i'm afraid that mathematics is so far removed from our everyday language
ByronTatman: and thinking
ByronTatman: that when it is explained to most people it comes out like an image so lo-fi that you can't even tell what it is
ByronTatman: and the problem with quantum mechanics is that it is written solely in the language of mathematics
ByronTatman: there is nothing intuitive about it at all
beaumont59: it is like a language for only a select few people, because i'm pretty sure i'm not capable of understanding it. it feels elite!
ByronTatman: it's not that it's for only a select few...but very few people know it well enough to describe something so detailed as quantum mechanics
ByronTatman: imagine
ByronTatman: a robot
ByronTatman: or a monkey
ByronTatman: that is taught a limited vocabulary
ByronTatman: like 200 words
ByronTatman: they could probably read a childrens book and understand it
ByronTatman: but they couldn't read shakespear
ByronTatman: or dostoevesky
ByronTatman: or voltair
ByronTatman: they could pick out some of the words
beaumont59: but what if they never could learn those extra words even if someone tried to teach them?
ByronTatman: it's a possibility
ByronTatman: there is a limit to how much they can know
ByronTatman: so there is a limit to how richly they can experience the english language
ByronTatman: and works of the english language
ByronTatman: same for mathematics
ByronTatman: we as humans have a limit to how much we can understand mathematics
ByronTatman: there is a limit to the complexity we can process
ByronTatman: but nature is purely mathematical
ByronTatman: and we understand nature as well as the mathematics we can use to describe it
beaumont59: this week there was a concerto aria concert here and there were some pieces composed by students.
beaumont59: and my roommate plays violin in the orchestra
ByronTatman: neat
beaumont59: she said that this one piece was composed based on structures (that i dont really understand because i don't read or write music) and just putting different sounds in layers, and it wasnt meant to evoke any emotions, but when people heard it they all talked about how it made them feel. they couldnt help but think that they were supposed to feel some certain way when they heard it, even though they werent
